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January 24, 2008

Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Posted by John Baez

These days I’ve been working hard finishing off papers. Now you can see this one on the arXiv:

Or, you can just read this summary…

As you probably know if you hang out here, Urs Schreiber and I like ‘higher gauge theory’, which describes what happens when you move a string or higher-dimensional membrane around, just as ordinary gauge theory does for point particles.

I didn’t get into this from string theory. I just like categorifying stuff. So, I got involved in higher gauge theory simply by trying to categorify the ideas of gauge theory.

If you categorify the concept of ‘group’, you get the concept of ‘2-group’: just as a group is a set with multiplication and inverses, a 2-group is a category with multiplication and inverses. In fact, 2-groups have been around for a long time under various names: ‘categorical groups’, ‘gr-categories’, and (in disguise) ‘crossed modules’. Just you can blend groups with topological spaces and get ‘topological groups’ you can do the same with 2-groups. For gauge theory, we want ‘Lie 2-groups’, which are especially nice topological 2-groups.

The story goes on. If you categorify the concept of ‘Lie algebra’, you get the concept of ‘Lie 2-algebra’. If you categorify the concept of ‘bundle’, you get the concept of ‘2-bundle’. And if you categorify the concept of ‘connection’, you get the concept of ‘2-connection’.

Now, if you hand me a topological group G, there’s a topological space called BG that serves as a ‘classifying space’ for principal G-bundles. In other words, under some mild conditions I won’t worry about here, principal G-bundles over a space M are classified by homotopy classes of maps

f:MBG

So, it’s natural to wonder if the same thing works for topological 2-groups. If G is a topological 2-group, is there a space BG such that principal G-2-bundles over a space M are classified by homotopy classes of maps MBG?

Yes! And thanks to some beautiful arguments developed by Danny Stevenson, we’re able to give a very simple construction of this space BG.

This fact is not exactly new. In his pioneering work on this subject, back in 2005, Branislav Jurčo asserted that a certain space homotopy equivalent to ours does the job. However, there are some gaps in his proof. This is what got Danny interested in straightening things out.

Later, Nils Baas, Marcel Bökstedt and Tore Kro constructed an even more general sort of classifying space. For any sufficiently nice topological 2-category C, they construct a classifying space for C-2-bundles. A topological 2-group is just a topological 2-category with one object and with all morphisms and 2-morphisms invertible — and in this special case, their result almost reduces to the fact mentioned above. There are some minor differences — for example, their classifying space matches Jurčo’s rather than ours, and they classify 2-bundles up to ‘concordance’. But it follows from our work that these differences don’t really matter.

A nice thing about having a classifying space is that it lets you define ‘characteristic classes’. For a topological 2-group G, characteristic classes are just elements of the cohomology H *(BG). Since any G-2-bundle over a space M comes from a map

f:MBG

and this gives a map

f *:H *(BG)H *(M),

characteristic classes automatically give elements of H *(M) when you have a principal G-2-bundle over M.

We look at an interesting example of this: the ‘string 2-group’. Any simply-connected compact simple Lie group, like SU(n) or Spin(n), automatically gives rise to a continuous 1-parameter family of Lie 2-algebras, and a discrete 1-parameter family of Lie 2-groups. When you set this parameter equal to 1, you get the string 2-group String(G). As the name suggests, this shows up in string theory. Following ideas of Matt Ando and Greg Ginot, we work out the characteristic classes for String(G)-2-bundles. The answer is simple: working with rational coefficients at least, H *(BString(G)) is just H *(BG) mod the ideal generated by the ‘first Pontryagin class’ — the god-given element in H 4 (BG).

If you actually read this paper, you’ll see it starts with a big review of known stuff, but then introduces some new technical tricks — three cool lemmas. You’ll learn about Cech cohomology with coefficients in a 2-group — also known as nonabelian cohomology — and you’ll see how the classifying space of a topological 2-group G is really just the classifying space of a certain topological group G: the ‘geometric realization of the nerve of G’. In particular, String(G) is a famous thing: it’s the 3-connected cover of G, meaning it’s built by ‘unwrapping’ G to make its 3rd homotopy group go away. The universal cover of a Lie group is the 1-connected cover; this is a more intense version of the same idea.

Posted at January 24, 2008 1:31 AM UTC

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96 Comments & 1 Trackback

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

I am glad this article is finally seeing the day of light. I remember that Danny in particular had started thinking about this long ago.

As a general comment, I would like to better understand the relation between

- the “standard” transformations between ana 2-functors X<YgBG which you use, and which follows the principle summarized in Morphisms of anafunctors

- and the “concordance” point of view on transformations between anafunctors, which Nils Baas, Tore Kro and M. Bökstedt use in studying classifying spaces of 2-categories.

Notice that concordance is designed exactly such as to deal elegantly with the somewhat subtle issue in transformations of anafunctors: the case where you have a transformation between two of them which are not defined on the same cover Y.

In the entry Concordance (pdf) I observe that there should be a nice relation between the two points of view, both being related by the Hom-adjunction in ω-categories (if we restrict attention to strict -groups for simplicity and for the moment).

This was supposed to be a contribution to understanding the “almost” in

their result almost reduces to the fact mentioned above.

I haven’t got any feedback on this contribution so far, which probably just means that it’s not relevant. And I didn’t find the time and leisure to persue this further.

But at least, after having thought about it it made me realize that concordance is the right way to go when describing -bundles with connection not at the Lie -group level, but at the Lie -algebra level.

This is now section 6.2 “L -algebra homotopy and concordance” and section 7 “L -Cartan-Ehresmann connections” in arXiv:0801.3480v1.

As discussed there, in this Lie -algebraic approach concordances play another important role: they automatically take care of the fact that for a finite transformation between morphisms of L -algebras, you actually do need to “integrate” L -algebra elements over an interval. (Compare the standard formula for the transformation of a Lie-algebra valued connection 1-form: A=gAg 1 +gdg 1 , which comes from a group element acting on the Lie algebra which we are really interested in.)

But, as we discuss, there is also a way to deal with this using not concordance but “transformations”. See table 5 on p. 32. These higher morphisms of L -algebra reproduce, in particular, the 2-morphisms which John and Alissa describe in HDA VI as is described in the appendix.

So, there must be a very direct, abstract nonsense kind of way to understand the precise relation between concordance and transformation. We should think about it.

By the way, the Lie -algebraic Cartan-Ehresmann kind of way to say that String bundles have the same characteristic classes as the underlying G-bundles but without the Pontrjagin class corresponds to theorem 3, p. 15.

In the next version we should add a discussion of this in the light of your result here, also relating in more detail to Ginot and Stiénon on Characteristic Classes of 2-Bundles.

Posted by: Urs Schreiber on January 24, 2008 12:45 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Urs wrote:

I am glad this article is finally seeing the day of light. I remember that Danny in particular had started thinking about this long ago.

Yes, Danny had this 3-lemma proof almost worked out at least a year ago. Then I got involved and wanted a ‘cleaner, more conceptual’ proof. We spent the spring of 2007 working on that proof… but it became clear that while certain experts on model categories could carry it out, we weren’t them.

So, when Danny came back to Riverside over Christmas, we decided it was time to switch back to his original strategy. It turned out a few details needed to be straightened out, involving nasty subtleties like the difference between locally trivial fiber bundles and fibrations (and how the former isn’t always the latter), and the difference between locally contractible topological groups, groups where the inclusion 1 G is a closed cofibration (aka ‘NDR pair’) and groups where the inclusion 1 G is a strong NDR pair. Technical things I never really wanted to think about! Luckily, in the end Peter May saved us — and in the end, everything worked out perfectly.

All this may sound a bit scary and unpleasant, but it’s actually not, in the end. Milgram, Segal and Steenrod noticed you could build a classfying space BG for a topological group G by taking the geometric realization of the nerve of G (viewed as a topological category with one object). They also got a space EG and a map EGBG. The question then arises:

When is EGBG a fibration?

and the nicest known answer seems to be

When 1 G is a closed cofibration!

This should be in some textbook somewhere, but we found it in some classic papers by Peter May, in somewhat concealed form.

As a general comment, I would like to better understand the relation between

- the “standard” transformations between ana 2-functors X<YgBG which you use, and which follows the principle summarized in Morphisms of anafunctors

- and the “concordance” point of view on transformations between anafunctors, which Nils Baas, Tore Kro and M. Böksted use in studying classifying spaces of 2-categories.

Notice that concordance is designed exactly such as to deal elegantly with the somewhat subtle issue in transformations of anafunctors: the case where you have a transformation between two of them which are not defined on the same cover Y.

Yes, this subtle issue is also what my ‘cleaner, more conceptual’ proof was supposed to tackle head-on… but in a superficially different way than you suggest, using model categories rather than higher categories:

In the entry Concordance (pdf) I observe that there should be a nice relation between the two points of view, both being related by the Hom-adjunction in ω-categories (if we restrict attention to strict -groups for simplicity and for the moment).

In the model category approach, I believe this adjunction should manifest itself as a ‘Quillen equivalence’: a specially nice adjunction between model categories. I’ve gotten an email from a young homotopy theorist who thinks he can work out the technical issues involved, so we’ll see what happens.

I haven’t got any feedback on this contribution so far, which probably just means that it’s not relevant.

It’s probably very relevant! Alas, every time you’ve told me about this, my internal reaction was aargh, Danny and I should just finish writing this paper… I didn’t want to think about yet another ‘cleaner, more conceptual’ strategy for solving a problem, when we had one solution almost ready to write up.

One more thing:

Having criticized it a little, I should add a few words in defense of Danny’s 3-lemma strategy for proving this theorem:

Theorem. Suppose that G is a well-pointed topological 2-group and M is a paracompact Hausdorff space admitting good covers. Then there is a bijection Hˇ 1 (M,G)[M,BG] where the topological group G is the geometric realization of the nerve of the topological groupoid G.

The main thing I like is Lemma 1, which gives a very practical concrete description of G in terms of the crossed module (G,H,t,α) corresponding to the 2-group G. Namely:

G(GEH)/H

Segal showed that EH is a topological group. G acts on H via α, so it acts on this group EH. This lets us define the semidirect product GEH. There’s a way to see H as a normal subgroup of GEH, via h(t(h),h 1 ). So, we can take the quotient (GEH)/H, and that turns out to be G.

If you remember, Danny was using some very similar tricks already in our paper ‘From Loop Groups to 2-Groups’.

Posted by: John Baez on January 24, 2008 6:03 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

John wrote:

The main thing I like is Lemma 1, which gives a very practical cocrete description of G in terms of the crossed module (G,H,t,α) corresponding to the 2-group G. Namely: G(GEH)/H

Yes, that’s nice. Back when we first talked about this, I had the impression that a nice way to understand this is by looking at tbe groupoid version of the universal G-2-bundle

GINN 0 (G)>BG

which I described with David Roberts in arXiv:0708.1741v1.

Hm, let me see if I find that old email I once sent. Ah, here it is.

So you considered the exact sequence of topological 2-groups

1 HEG1 , where Obj(E)=GH and Mor(E)=(GH)H.

The statement G(GEH)/H together with EGEH then leads to the sequence of topological 1-groups 1 HGEH(GEH)/H which you use to get an explicit description of G.

Back then this reminded me of the following. I am still not sure if it is relevant, but it sure looks interesting to me.

I wrote:

As you know, we point out that for C any 2-groupoid, we get a short exact sequence

Mor(C)TCC of 2-groupoids with a couple of nice properties. In particular, if

C=BG

is a 1-object 2-groupoid, we get the exact sequence

GINN 0 (G)BG

and that this “is” the universal G 2-bundle.

(We don’t try to take nerves and their realizations of this (David might in his thesis, I guess), but instead discuss how it plays the role of the universal 2-bundle in the world of 2-groupoids.)

For G coming from the crossed module (HG) I’d think that the exact sequence which you describe, HEG is obtained from the one above by quotienting out one factor of G.

I am not claiming that I have rigorously proven the following, but it seems to be true:

it seems your sequence is the pushout of our sequence along the canonical morphism

GBH

namely

G INN 0 (G) BG BH BE BG

with “our” sequence on top and “your” sequence in the bottom row, with the left vertical arrow the canonical one, the middle one a pushout and the right one the identity.

As a conistency check, notice that we show in our paper that INN 0 (G) is a 3-group coming from the 2-crossed module which is the mapping cone of the identity on the crossed module (HG).

This means it is itself given by a complex of group

HGHG

which is almost, up to the Peiffer lifting, a crossed module of crossed modules

(GH)(GH)

So it’s plausible that dividing out one factor of G here we do get your 2-group

E “=” (GH)H,

that you consider.

If this works as I imagine it does, it would seem to give a nice conceptual and arrow-theoretic way to think the formulas you have.

That’s what I said back then. I haven’t really thought much more about it. Except that back then I really wrote ΣG for the one-object 2-groupoid corresponding to the 2-group G, whereas now I write BG.

Posted by: Urs Schreiber on January 24, 2008 6:42 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Some points:

1) The notion of 2-group seems a special case of the notion of 2-groupoid and so of globular omega-groupoid. These were shown equivalent to crossed complexes by Philip Higgins and I in 1981 (CTGDC). There is a general question of the appropriate structures for `higher dimensional group(oid)s’ as the possibilities proliferate, partly because of the many compact convex sets in R^n for n > 1. All these possibilities and their pros and cons should be discussed. I am against the idea that `crossed modules are 2-groups in disguise’, as this is making an assumption. We need to find out which concepts are best in which situations.

2) A simplicial version of the classifying space BC of a crossed complex C was defined and discussed in a paper with Higgins in Proc. Camb. Phil. Soc., 1991. The advantage was a result on homotopy classification of maps of a CW-complex to BC in terms of crossed complex maps \Pi X_* to C. This generalises old results of Eilenberg-Mac Lane, including the local coefficient case. This has been generalised to the equivariant case in work with Golasinski, Porter and Tonks (K-theory, 2001). It is clearly related to nonabelian cohomology.

3) The description of BC was for a crossed complex in the category of sets. If C is a topological crossed complex then its nerve as we defined it is a simplicial space, and so again defines BC. This needs work to exploit its properties.

4) In the abstract case we can successfuly use fibrations of crossed complexes (as coefficient morphisms, leading to families of exact sequences in nonabelian cohomology). Can this be generalised to the topological case?

Posted by: Ronnie Brown on January 24, 2008 10:30 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Two questions:

1) Once we start talking about BG, I wonder why we need inverses? G a monoid works fine, as should a monoidoid (yuch!)

2) In terms of extensions of topological groups
K –> H –> G
it is reasonable to consider H–>G being a principal K bundle.

Then we can forget the group and classify the bundle.
If the bundle is trivial i.e. topologically split we can consider the group structure as usual in terms of a 2-cocyle where now cochains are continuous.

This exists in the literature: Graeme Segal has published one version, another due to D. Johnson I believe remains unpublished.

Posted by: jim stasheff on January 25, 2008 1:20 AM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Jim wrote:

Once we start talking about BG, I wonder why we need inverses? G a monoid works fine, as should a monoidoid (yuch!)

“Yuch”?

I always say “yuck”.

Groupoids are called groupoids, but monoidoids are called categories — and for that, we should all be grateful.

If we define BG as the classifying space of the nerve of the topological category G, it’s easy to generalize to the case where G is a topological a category, or a topological 2-category, or even beyond.

As I hinted above, Nils Baas, Marcel Bokstedt and Tore Kro have defined ‘charted C-bundles’ for any topological 2-category C. When the topological 2-category C and the space M are sufficiently nice, they show the set of ‘concordance classes’ of charted C-2-bundles over M is in 1-1 correspondence with the set of homotopy classes

[M,BC].

So, there’s no need for inverses! However, you have be a bit careful dealing with bundles (or 2-bundles) where the transition functions don’t have inverses.

The work of Baas Bökstedt and Kro uses Jack Duskin’s idea of the ‘nerve of a 2-category’ — generalized to the topological case. Danny and I only use the ‘nerve of a category’ — generalized to the topological case.

Here’s a charming fact, mentioned in our paper. Say someone walks up and hands you a topological 2-group G.

You can think of it as a topological 2-category with one object, follow Duskin’s prescription to take its nerve NG, and take the geometric realization of that to get a space NG.

Or, you can think of it as a topological groupoid that just happens to be equipped with a group structure! If you take the geometric realization of the nerve of this topological groupoid, you get a space we call G. Of course, this just happens to have a group structure. So, G is a topological group. So, you can form its classifying space BG.

It turns out that these two spaces NG and BG are homotopy equivalent!

There’s even a third way to get your hands on the classifying space of a topological 2-group. All this is discussed in Section 5.2 of our paper.

Posted by: John Baez on January 25, 2008 10:08 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

The notion of 2-group seems a special case of the notion of 2-groupoid and so of globular omega-groupoid. These were shown equivalent to crossed complexes by Philip Higgins and I in 1981 (CTGDC) [here I suppose? - urs]. There is a general question of the appropriate structures for `higher dimensional group(oid)s’ as the possibilities proliferate, […]. All these possibilities and their pros and cons should be discussed. I am against the idea that `crossed modules are 2-groups in disguise’, as this is making an assumption. We need to find out which concepts are best in which situations.

Lately you have kept pointing out to us (or maybe to me, in particular) here that we may not appreciate sufficiently existing results about crossed complexes. I am actually grateful for your persistence in this matter and will try (am trying) to better myself.

But maybe I could add this remark: from my subjective perspective (which is obviously different from your subjective perspective!) it has always been the n-group which is the “true” object, and the crossed complex which is “just a way to describe and handle it”.

Possibly the notion of homotopies of crossed complexes is a point in case:

the definition of a homotoy of morphisms of a crossed complex is a list of rather unilluminating (John would probably say: scary) equations.

But it turns out (as it should) that they describe nothing but the obvious 2-commuting naturality tin-can diagrams between morphisms of the corresponding higher groups.

So in one case I have a very immediate construction of the objects of interest, which is manifestly “right”, while on the other hand I have a host of equations whose relevance I can only ascertain by finding that lots of nice facts follow from these formulas.

Personally, I feel this is a good reason for thinking that

crossed modules are 2-groups ‘in disguise’.

I openly admit that this is how I feel and how I have always felt.

But, and here I don’t want to be misunderstood, of course this subjective feeling about concepts in no way justifies being careless about the host of good results about crossed complexes which have been obtained. So I appreciate your comments here.

One last remark: even though at this point (in this entry here) we are exclusively talking about strict 2-groups, maybe one other reason for assigning priority to the concept of an n-group is that in general we may want and have to consider weak ones.

Posted by: Urs Schreiber on January 25, 2008 12:39 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Urs, “we can always replace weak 2-groupoids with strict ones without losing any homotopy theoretic information, and this strictification does not alter derived mapping spaces.” From page 2 of this paper by B. Noohi.

Is there some other advantage to “consider weak ones”?

Posted by: Charlie Stromeyer Jr on January 26, 2008 8:39 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

and yet, for n=2, bicats are equivalent to 2 cats
but this does not go for n=3

Posted by: jim stasheff on January 27, 2008 7:25 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

I agree that there are several equivalent categories of strict objects and that the switching between these is a powerful procedure, which Philip Higgins and I exploit. Where we go furthest away from crossed complexes is to the cubical case, which is even simpler to understand than the globular case.

This is discussed a bit on my page (recently revised)

http://www.bangor.ac.uk/r.brown/nonab-a-t.html

However crossed complexes are useful for computation and for their relation to the widely used chain complexes.

I agree about the weak case, but even here the cubical case may have possibilities and advantages, as shown in work of Richard Steiner.

I am more than happy to discuss these questions directly if you wish.

Posted by: Ronnie Brown on January 27, 2008 3:43 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Ronnie Brown:

I am against the idea that ‘crossed modules are 2-groups in disguise’, as this is making an assumption.

Well, 2-groups are also crossed modules in disguise! The 2-category of crossed modules is equivalent to the 2-category of 2-groups. So, it’s a matter of convenience which we use… and if you look at my paper with Danny, you’ll see we use both viewpoints very heavily.

In fact, we really need four different viewpoints, which we list and explain in Section 3.

A simplicial version of the classifying space BC of a crossed complex C was defined and discussed in a paper with Higgins in Proc. Camb. Phil. Soc., 1991.

Interesting! Thanks, I’ll look at that and add a reference to Section 5.2, where we rapidly summarize a bunch of work on classifying spaces for 2-groups — whoops, I mean crossed modules.

Posted by: John Baez on January 25, 2008 10:23 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

I agree with all comments that there are a number of equivalent categories of algebraic objects, and one uses the appropriate one for the context at hand. I am not sure they should be called disguises for each other! The switching between these categories can be enormously powerful, partly because in higher dimensions the equivalences are non trivial; the cubical versus crossed complex switch is exploited in the work with Philip Higgins!

The value (for certain purposes) of these different (strict) structures is discussed a bit on my page

http://www.bangor.ac.uk/r.brown/nonab-a-t.html

I am not surprised at people avoiding the cubical version, but this was my basic intuition for conjecturing and proving theorems which are not accessible by other means it seems. It also gave our first (1982) version of the classifying space of a crossed complex (see the above web page).

Urs’ point about the weak theory is a good one. I suspect the cubical theory may eventually show advantages in this respect - see recent papers of Richard Steiner. There is a lot of work to be done here to see if this idea is correct. But I love cubes for the ease of ‘algebraic inverse to subdivision’, and the application of that to local-to-global problems.

Posted by: Ronnie Brown on January 27, 2008 3:27 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

“the difference between locally trivial fiber bundles and fibrations (and how the former isn’t always the latter)…”

What! do you then mean by fibration! most defintions dear to alg top types use fibrations as a generalization of bundle = locally trivial e.g. the path fibration is not locally trivial

btw, on your p.4 does principal G-2-bundle mean locally trivial?

Posted by: jim stasheff on January 25, 2008 1:30 AM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Jim wrote:

Note: This business of e.g. ‘without the Pontryagin class’ follows from a classic Gysin sequence argument, using crucially that the extension is by S 1 .

Yes — Danny came up with a Gysin sequence computation of the cohomology of String(G) (the 3-connected cover of the compact simple Lie group G), but he didn’t see how to use this to get the ring structure on the cohomology… so we went ahead with the spectral sequence argument.

All this is a bit beyond my range of expertise, alas. To me a ‘spectral sequence’ is something like the series of ghosts that came to haunt Scrooge on the night before Christmas… by the time we get to the E 3 term I break down, repent, and promise to quit being a mathematician. More importantly, I don’t know if you can use the Gysin sequence to figure out the ring structure on cohomology.

Posted by: John Baez on January 25, 2008 5:49 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

” I don’t know if you can use the Gysin sequence to figure out the ring structure on cohomology.”

Up to a point which in this case is I bet enough - the connecting morphism in cohomology has a specific form.

When Danny’s done being a witness, let’s ask.

Posted by: jim stasheff on January 25, 2008 6:38 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Yes, you can use the Gysin sequence to figure out the ring structure on cohomology.
One of the maps in the sequence is given by the (wedge or cup) product with the Euler class of the sphere bundle.

You can look it up in Wiki.

Posted by: jim stasheff on January 26, 2008 2:00 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Note: This business of e.g. ‘without the Pontryagin class’ follows from a classic Gysin sequence argument, using crucially that the extension is by S1.

For other groups, life will be much more interesting.

Posted by: jim stasheff on January 25, 2008 1:24 AM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

the Lie -algebraic Cartan-Ehresmann kind of way to say that String bundles have the same characteristic classes as the underlying G-bundles but without the Pontrjagin class corresponds to theorem 3, p. 15.

There is now a more pronounced statement of this, figure 8 on p. 48.

Posted by: Urs Schreiber on January 25, 2008 3:26 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

“just as a group is a set with multiplication and inverses, a 2-group is a category with multiplication and inverses.”

A “set” is a 0-category, and a “category” is a 1-category, so wouldn’t it be more logical to call a group, a “0-group”, and a 2-group a “1-group”?

Also, if you say that a category is a set with morphisms, a 2-category is a category with 2-morphisms between morphisms, a 3-category is a 2-category with 3-morphisms between 2-morphisms, etc, wouldn’t it be more logical to define “2-group” as follows? A category is a set with morphisms between elements. A group is a set with binary operations between elements (with the identity and inverses). Just as a 2-category is a category with 2-morphisms between morphisms, a 2-group would be a group with 2-binary operations between binary operations. In other words, let’s say you had a group with several binary operations, and it was a group under each of those binary operations. Then let’s say you could perform a 2-binary operation on two of those binary operations, and get one of the other binary operations. In fact these these binary operations would themselves form a group, where the various binary operations would be elements of the group, which would then be a group under the 2-binary operation.

Jeffery winkler

Posted by: Jeffery Winkler on February 4, 2008 7:08 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Jeffrey wrote:

A “set” is a 0-category, and a “category” is a 1-category, so wouldn’t it be more logical to call a group, a “0-group”, and a 2-group a “1-group”?

Perhaps! I often think about these things.

Right now, the custom is to call the categorified version of a familiar thingie a “2-thingie”. For example, a categorified category is a 2-category, a categorified group is a 2-group, and so on. This system has one big advantage, which is that you can take all your favorite theorems, stick “2-” in front of lots of words, and hope that some similar result is true.

Of course if we stuck to this system in a truly stubborn way, we might call a category a “2-set”, and a functor a “2-function”.

I’m not eager to force the terminology to be “logical” too soon, because we don’t really understand things very well yet.

For example, it turns out that n-categories make sense not only for n=0 , but also for n=1 and 2 — see the section on ‘The Power of Negative Thinking’ here. Lots of things might more sense if our numbering system took this into account. But, I think it’s too early to optimize things.

It’s hard to get notation right the first time, and bad old notation has a way of sticking around. For example, in astronomy, Population I stars are older than Population II stars, and oxygen counts as a “metal”. The crazy system for determining the “magnitude” of a star dates back to Ptolemy, and shows no sign of going away.

This is why we need civilization to collapse now and then.

Posted by: John Baez on February 4, 2008 7:44 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

wouldn’t it be more logical to call a group, a “0-group”

I’d think not, because a group is the abstract diagrams specifying a group internalized in a 1-category.

Whenever a concept is internalized in an n-category, we call the result an n-thing.

But sometimes people give 2-things new atomic names. Then things can become a little confused.

So happened with “stacks” and “gerbes” and “branes”. A “stack” as well as a “gerbe” is really a 2-sheaf. Hence “2-stacks” and “2-gerbes” are really 3-sheaves.

Of course being consistent with being inconsistent reduced the confusion. So for instance 1-branes couple to 1-gerbes with connection. Which is okay, since 1-branes are really 2-particles.

So, “sheaves” and “particles” have been around before “gerbes” and “branes” were named, and if people had payed more attention (or rather: had cared) they would have called the latter 2-this and 2-that.

Posted by: Urs Schreiber on February 4, 2008 9:50 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

This is why we need civilization to collapse now and then.

Ah - stimulated annealing in large scale.

Posted by: Urs Schreiber on February 4, 2008 9:53 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

stimulated annealing

Was that a pun, a mistake, or has it become a recognised term? I have heard it once or twice before.

I see Google gives 1260 hits for your version, and 610000 for simulated annealing.

Posted by: David Corfield on February 5, 2008 9:14 AM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

I asked John the same question when he told me in Vienna that intellectual progress requires forgetting your mistakes and that this is like in stimulated annealing.

Does seem to make sense, conceptually: you want to catalyze (hence stimulate) that procees.

But who am I to talk about single letter differences between words.

Posted by: Urs Schreiber on February 5, 2008 11:46 AM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Doesn’t the ‘annealing’ part already give us the sense of causal agency? ‘Simulated’ is drawing attention to the fact there are no real metals being heated – it’s just an analogy, albeit a very good one.

Posted by: David Corfield on February 5, 2008 4:08 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Urs wrote:

I asked John the same question when he told me in Vienna that intellectual progress requires forgetting your mistakes and that this is like in stimulated annealing.

Really? I must have been tired or joking or something. The usual term is ‘simulated annealing’. I don’t remember ever talking about ‘stimulated annealing’.

If you look in Wikipedia, you’ll see it begins by describing simulated annealing as a ‘generic probabilistic meta-algorithm for the global optimization problem’. Impressive — but this article needs a bit of editing so ordinary people like me can understand it.

Basic idea: if you get stuck on what you think is the best thing to do, you’ll need to get pushed around a bit to find something even better.

Posted by: John Baez on February 5, 2008 6:42 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Really?

Oh, dear. After I sent that message I was getting afraid that this would happen.

Sorry, never mind, it’s probably me misremembering things. And in any case, it doesn’t really matter.

Time for me to forget that particular mistake of mine…

Posted by: Urs Schreiber on February 5, 2008 7:51 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

“The crazy system for determining the “magnitude” of a star dates back to Ptolemy, and shows no sign of going away.”

I think it was Hipparchus who devised the system of star magnitudes still in use today.

Posted by: Jeffery Winkler on February 6, 2008 5:22 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Dear Professors Baez and Stevenson,

I have only just started to read your paper above and so I only have so far just one comment concerning the last sentence in paragraph 2 of page 2:

Non-abelian cohomology can also be defined via a generalization of abelian gerbes (in terms of 2-categories). This is explained in this paper about a tower of n-gerbes by A. Tsemo.

Posted by: Charlie Stromeyer Jr on January 25, 2008 2:45 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Non-abelian cohomology can also be defined via a generalization of abelian gerbes (in terms of 2-categories). This is explained in this paper about a tower of n-gerbes by A. Tsemo.

I haven’t absorbed that article yet. But I know the following way to characterize nonabelian cohomology by collections of higher abelian cohomologies:

Given a classifying space G for some n-group G, we can consider for each ordinary degree k cohomology class of G the (k2 )-gerbe = (k1 )-line bundle classified by it.

Hence, given any classifying map XG we can not only pull back the universal (in general non-abelian) G-bundle to X and get a class in nonabelian cohomology, but we can also pull back all these higher abelian line bundles. Their classes know all about the characteristic classes of the nonabelian G-bundle. That characterizes the nonabelian cocycle to a great extent (though in general not entirely).

This is proposition 35 on p. 64 in the paragraph Line n-bundles on classifying spaces here.

I can’t tell yet if that is at all related to what the paper you pointed to is addressing, but the term “tower of n-gerbes” vaguely reminded me of this.

Posted by: Urs Schreiber on January 25, 2008 3:40 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Is there a notion of Eilenberg-MacLane spaces for 2-groups? So K(G,n) has homotopy only in dimensions n and n+1 given by the 2-group G, and is unique in some suitable sense.

I feel sure I’ve asked this before.

Posted by: David Corfield on January 25, 2008 2:51 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Sure
Never seen it said that way but
t:H –> G
determines the k-invariant K(H,n+1)–>K(G,n+1)

Posted by: jim stasheff on January 25, 2008 6:45 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

David wrote:

Is there a notion of Eilenberg-MacLane spaces for 2-groups? So K(G,n) has homotopy only in dimensions n and n+1 given by the 2-group G, and is unique in some suitable sense.

This works, but you have to be a bit careful. You’ll like this!

First let’s warm up a bit:

K(G,1 ) makes sense for any group G.

K(G,2 ), K(G,3 ) etcetera make sense when G is abelian.

Backing up, K(G,0 ) makes sense whenever G is a mere set!

So: set, group, abelian group, abelian group… what we’re seeing here is the first column of the periodic table!

A k-tuply groupal n-groupoid is an (n+k)-groupoid with only one j-morphism for j less than k. The periodic table shows the pattern:

...............................................
               k-tuply groupal n-groupoids 


n = 0 n = 1 n = 2

k = 0 sets groupoids 2-groupoids

k = 1 groups 2-groups 3-groups

k = 2 abelian braided braided groups 2-groups 3-groups

k = 3 " " symmetric sylleptic 2-groups 3-groups

k = 4 " " " " symmetric 3-groups

k = 5 " " " " " " ....................................................

According to the homotopy hypothesis, k-tuply groupal n-groupoids are secretly the same as spaces with only π k,,π n+k nontrivial.

Now you’re asking about the second column. Let G be a 2-group. According to the homotopy hypothesis, a 2-group is secretly a space with only π 1 and π 2 nontrivial. You’re calling this space K(G,2 ).

What about K(G,3 )? According to the periodic table, this should make sense when G is a braided 2-group. And, it should be a space with only π 2 and π 3 nontrivial.

Indeed, that’s right: braided 2-groups classify spaces with only π 2 and π 3 nontrivial. A proof can be found lurking rather deeply here.

But here’s the interesting subtlety, which you will surely enjoy. For a group to be abelian is a mere property. But, for a 2-group to be braided is an extra structure.

So, you can’t get K(G,3 ) unless you equip your 2-group G with a braiding.

I leave the case of K(G,4 ) as an exercise.

It takes work to prove some of these things, but the pattern is simple and beautiful! It could be taught in high school.

Posted by: John Baez on January 25, 2008 7:23 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

So say we have a symmetric 2-group, G. This lets us define, you say, Eilenberg-MacLane spaces K(G,n) for all n.

Now surely we’re going to want to start mapping into these spaces from other spaces. So we might think about [X,K(G,n)] and expect this to be the nth cohomology of X of some kind, linked to the spectrum E(n)=K(G,n).

I wonder if [X,K(G,n)] was ambitious enough – mere homotopy classes of maps. Is this not to decategorify from a groupoid of such mappings?

Posted by: David Corfield on January 26, 2008 10:06 AM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

I wonder if [X,K(G,n)] was ambitious enough…

And further down the page you’re asking something similar.

Posted by: David Corfield on January 26, 2008 2:50 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

David wrote:

So say we have a symmetric 2-group, G.

It’s also good to know how topologists would say this, so we can tap into their knowledge. Instead of saying ‘symmetric 2-group’, they’d say ‘homotopy 2-type which happens to be an infinite loop space’, or ‘spectrum with only π 1 and π 2 nontrivial’.

(Remember: the words ‘symmetric’, ‘infinite loop space’ and ‘spectrum’ are all ways of saying that we’ve entered the ‘stable’ range of the periodic table.)

This lets us define, you say, Eilenberg-MacLane spaces K(G,n) for all n.

Right. Of course no topologist will understand you when you say this.

But, if you tell them “For each n2 I’ve got a space K(G,n) with only π n1 and π n nontrivial, and these spaces are related by looping: ΩK(G,n)=K(G,n1 )”, they’ll say something like “Oh! You mean you’ve got an infinite loop space with only π 1 and π 2 nontrivial! Why didn’t you just say so?”

And, they’ll proceed to tell you that these things are classified by a pair of abelian groups π 1 , π 2 and a certain extra piece of data linking the two, studied extensively by Whitehead, Eilenberg and Mac Lane in the 1950s. This extra piece of data is really the associator and braiding in our symmetric 2-group, as Joyal and Street proved in 1986.

Now surely we’re going to want to start mapping into these spaces from other spaces. So we might think about [X,K(G,n)] and expect this to be the nth cohomology of X of some kind, linked to the spectrum E(n)=K(G,n).

Oh, good! You figured it all out already!

Homotopy theorists regard Eilenberg–Mac Lane spectra (coming from abelian groups, mind you!) as the simplest of spectra. These ones coming from symmetric 2-groups would also be regarded as pathetically simple. The really juicy ones have nontrivial homotopy groups going all the way up… and all the way down, too: that’s how spectra go beyond infinite loop spaces.

Posted by: John Baez on January 27, 2008 4:05 AM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Homotopy theorists regard Eilenberg–Mac Lane spectra (coming from abelian groups, mind you!) as the simplest of spectra. These ones coming from symmetric 2-groups would also be regarded as pathetically simple.

Pathetically simple though they may be, you yourself have expressed interest in finding out geometric descriptions of the spaces of the very simplest of spectra – K(,n). For example, here you are in TWF 149 wanting to know K(,3 ):

Basically, the point is that the integers, the group U(1), and infinite-dimensional complex projective space are all really important in quantum theory. This is perhaps more obvious for the latter two spaces - the integers are so basic that it’s hard to see what’s so “quantum-mechanical” about them. However, since each of these spaces is just the loop space of the next, they’re all part of tightly linked sequence… and I want to know what comes next!

Now, are there some nice simple 2-groups which would yield geometrically interesting K(G,n)’s?

Might there even be cases where you find something as pleasant as CP =K(,2 ), with its universal line bundle?

Or is it that all you’ll get is a simple-ish composition of spaces from each of the two levels?

Perhaps a nice case to consider would be that weak 2-group we were talking about.

Posted by: David Corfield on January 27, 2008 10:55 AM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

Right. Of course no topologist will understand you when you say this.

>:O

So, since evidently our definitions differ.. what’s a topologist?

Posted by: John Armstrong on January 27, 2008 5:34 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

I meant someone who could help me on questions about K(G,n)’s with G a 2-group. For me, part of the fun of learning homotopy theory has always been taking questions about n-groupoids, translating them into homotopy theory lingo, asking experts these questions, and translating the answers back. Someday this may not be necessary, thanks to people like you… and everyone at this café. But right now it seems to be.

Posted by: John Baez on January 27, 2008 6:38 PM | Permalink | Reply to this

Re: Classifying Spaces for 2-Groups

David wrote:

Pathetically simple though they may be, you yourself have expressed interest in finding out geometric descriptions of the spaces of the very simplest of spectra –